[BALUG-Talk] Request BALUG members SET POLICY- ALL GNU(Linux) carpool msgs OK & ENCOURAGED- was: The Goodness of Carpool messages...

[john_re]

Hi Rick -

CONTENTS:
1) Rick rightfully rules BALUG list - OK
2) Andrew's message - concerns, not necessarily a rule
3) CARPOOL message BENEFITS
4) EASY for list readers to filter out several ways
5) REQUEST to BALUG members:
        BALUG members SET POLICY:
        Carpool message OK since BENEFICIAL
6) Footnote: Benefits of having related event carpool notices

=====
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:54:27 -0700, "Rick Moen" <rick at linuxmafia.com>
said:
> John Regan (john_re at fastmail.us) replied to Andrew:

> > b) But, in this case, I just note that the "we" [& I know this is a side
> > point, cause what I'm about to say_isn't_ what the following part of
> > your sentence will state] isn't unanimous
> 
> Which brings me to the guy I shave:  I'm the mailing list listadmin.
> 
> <hat="listadmin">
> As listadmin, I agree with Andrew:  You should not post PenLUG (or other
> non-BALUG) carpool messages to balug-talk.
> </hat>


===== 1) Rick rightfully rules BALUG list - OK

I believe you, Rick, are recognized by many as having made many &
diverse generous contributions, for many years, to the well being of the
GNU(Linux) community.  I believe that in your years of managing mailing
lists for the community you have likely learned valuable guidelines to
proper social behavior on mailing lists.

As the volunteer administrator of BALUG's list, I recognize your right
to propose & enforce some various policy matters as they arise, without
needing to consult with nor gain approval from the groups leaders &
members.  That being a reasonable matter a group could entrust to the
wisdom of their experienced mailing list manager.

So, since you have told me I 
"should not post PenLUG (or other non-BALUG) carpool messages to
balug-talk,"
I will refrain from so doing, 
(even though I believe that leaves the GNU(Linux) & BALUG communities
worse off),
until such time as the BALUG group indicates 
that BALUG's list policy should permit anyone to post such carpool
notices.

I will request below that BALUG members consider & make a rule that such
carpool messages are both 
1) PERMITTED and 
2) ENCOURAGED,
because that is best for the GNU(Linux) community & BALUG.

===== 2) Andrew's message - concerns, not necessarily a rule

_Andrew's_ message _didn't_ say anyone 
  "should not post ... non-BALUG carpool messages to balug-talk," 
although that is a possible & likely underlying 
  concern & request of his message.
And of course that doesn't invalidate your right, Rick, 
  to believe in the rightness of your particular rule.

Andrew _did_ say (reformatting for clarity):
"
1) While not totally off topic, 
2) your message about carpooling to PenLUG 
     would be more appropriate for the PenLUG mailing list.
3) We don't want the BALUG list to devolve into a LUG carpool list."


Thus:

1) Andrew acknowledges my message was in fact on topic for this BALUG
list.
I also believe my message was, & such messages are, on topic for the
BALUG list.

http://www.balug.org/#Lists
BALUG Mailing Lists:
* "talk" general public BALUG, Linux and related discussion (see the URL
for policies)

http://lists.balug.org/listinfo.cgi/balug-talk-balug.org
About BALUG-Talk        English (USA)
This is a public discussion mailing list for Bay Area Linux User Group. 


2) Yes.  "more appropriate"  In fact so appropriate that I had already
posted it there, before posting it to BALUG.

3a) As a colloquial manner of speech, although the actual statement is a
standard way of speaking, it is an extremely unlikely hypothetical,
which will almost certainly never occur.
-  The BALUG list will never "devolve into a LUG carpool list"

3b) Thus, the true underlying concern & message of this sentence 
  is perhaps components of this:
"it could have _some_ negative consequences 
  if there where _many_ carpool messages on the BALUG list 
    that aren't _highly_ relevant to _many_ BALUG list readers. 
BALUG readers are _primarily_ interested in BALUG related linux
information, 
  & secondarily about other linux information,
    & information about attending a linux event that is not BALUG 
      likely usually interests only a subset of BALUG members.
Thus, john_re, take that info into consideration.
Perhaps posting such messages is not the best thing to do."

It was because of that last possible component 
that I concluded it was best for the community 
that I make the reply I did to his message, 
pointing out the benefits of having such carpool messages 
on the BALUG list.


===== 3) Carpool message BENEFITS

I personally believe that such carpool messages have BENEFITS that
GREATLY OUTWEIGH all negative aspects they might have, for the BALUG
community, & in fact for the GNU(Linux) COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.  (Reasons
which are basically outlined in my message to the list replying to
Andrew, which you, Rick, quoted from.)

[See the reasons from that message, below as footnote in this message.]

Therefore, I believe such messages should be not only permitted, but
encouraged by anyone willing to offer carpool rides or pay for receiving
such a ride.

Note that since Andrew is a busy person, it is unsurprising that he
hasn't replied to this list re my comments to him.  Perhaps when he has
time to read & consider them, he will come to believe as I do about this
matter - that such carpool messages should be permitted & encouraged.

===== 4) Easy for list members/readers to filter out several ways

Note that there are _two_ easy ways BALUG list readers who don't wish to
receive carpool messages have at their disposal to avoid seeing them:
1) Readers can have their email sw filter out messages whose subject
contains "carpool".
2) The BALUG mail list sw could be set to have an option of not
forwarding such messages to the reader through a list member preference
setting.

Further:
3) A requirement could be made for list posters that carpool
announcements to non BALUG events must begin with some subject flag such
as, ex "OTCarpool", meaning "OffTopicCarpool" (as differentiated from an
on topic carpool notice, which would be about carpooling to a BALUG
event) which would allow even more precise filtering, at the individual
discretion level.

===== 5) REQUEST: BALUG members SET POLICY:
=====             Carpool message OK since BENEFICIAL

Thus I here now call upon the BALUG membership as a whole,
& the BALUG leaders,
to cogitate upon the value 
  to the BALUG list readers, & the GNU(Linux) COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE,
  which having carpool messages to GNU(Linux) related events,
    which are not BALUG, 
  provides to BALUG list MEMBERS & the GNU(Linux) COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE,
& after having so cogitated,
each BALUG list member I request:
  if they find POSITIVE VALUE in having such messages sent to the list
  should POST A COMMENT to this list informing the list readers
    that such CARPOOL MESSAGES 
    SHOULD BE PERMITTED & ENCOURAGED on the list,
And then the relevant BALUG web pages (url's provided above)
  be UPDATED to reflect that PERMISSION & ENCOURAGEMENT.


[Whew!  Gotta quit this volunteer effort for the community & get back to
my real work.

Best wishes, BALUG community.]


==========================================================================
==========================================================================
===== Footnote: Benefits of having related event carpool notices

The considerations about posting a carpool communication & "appropriate
use of a mailng list" are really not about mailing lists per se, they
are really about community communication.

The larger, & proper context here, is about doing what is right for the
community as a whole, & lesserly about what might be relevant particular
or germane to the "major" or "main" or "main-specific" purpose of any
one mailing list.

For the community (let me specify it as the GNU(Linux) community) as a
whole, rather than just BALUG, I believe the main consideration guiding
choice of action to take is "is the community as a whole better off for
the action occuring, or less well off".

I believe that 
the more people that attend events like this, 
the more community knowledge is aquired, 
the more plesantness & goodness for people is acquired, 
the more potential for community development & progress is obtained
(like, there is more knowledge in more peoples minds that can lead to
more software development or deployment).

Given the 
 non trivial cost of traveling to such events, & the 
 time involved in traveling, & the 
 time involved in communication to arrange travel, & the 
 small but significant barrier to making the first communication that
 get's the arrangements for carpooling started (posting the first
 "carpool from x to y for event z" message) [in physics this property is
 called "activation energy"], & the 
 increased benefit from posting additional _relevant_ messages once the
 first message text has been created,
I believe it best to post carpool messages 
 to wherever they are likely to do some good,
 in particular, to all the geographical points appropriate for
 carpooling between the endpoints of travel.

In this case, I am traveling from Berkeley to SanMateo, via either
SanFrancisco or Hayward.  Through those paths, the only relevant groups
are the endpoint ones - PenLUG & BUUG (Berkeley Unix Users Group) - &
the in-between ones - which are only the two LUGs in SF, BALUG & SF-LUG.
- so that's where I posted the announcements.

[Side note of evidence for validation of my beliefs:
Before Monday I osted a carpool note about an event at FutureSalon, &
two poeple from sf, from the sflug list, emailed me desiring to ride in
my carpool. - So, GNU(Linux) community members in SanFrancisco did in
fact desire this effort of mine, as recently as of in this past week.]

=====
So,
5a) I think relevant carpool messages are more of a benefit than
detriment to the community, & thus should be both unofficially &
officially encouraged.
5b) Thus I call upon you, Andrew, to post an "officially encouraging of
carpool announcements" to this list, to compensate for the (minorly,
IMO) unbeneficial aspects of your post I'm replying to here. [Note: I
just noticed you sent your email to me only, & not to the BALUG list,
thus you didn't cause the detriment I mentioned in the previous sentence
- time is too short for me to rewrite that.]